The references in Big O...

[Anebo]

Oh, the Triumph of the Will thing. I think around 90% of people who saw that never thought of it being fascist. I never even knew that it was taken from a Nazi propaganda movie until a little while ago.

I think a lot of movies have borrowed that. It's a cool "yay let's congratulate the heroes on winning" scene.

I’m hardly responsible for the ignorance of the mass viewing audience.

Steven Spielberg, however, is.

One might think that manipulating the unsuspecting audience’s emotions by using Nazi propaganda techniques (especially in an atmosphere already thick with fascist motifs such as the heroic use of will to overcome the otherwise invincible, insidious power of the enemy conceived of as pure evil—and one could go on) might be considered, well… evil.

[Anebo]

Spielberg...Lucas...Same differnce.

[R. Daniel 01]

It showed the principle characters being decorated at a fascist ralley complete with neo-Speerian red banners all over the place.

Look again. There were no banners.

I’m hardly responsible for the ignorance of the mass viewing audience.

Steven Spielberg, however, is.

One might think that manipulating the unsuspecting audience’s emotions by using Nazi propaganda techniques (especially in an atmosphere already thick with fascist motifs such as the heroic use of will to overcome the otherwise invincible, insidious power of the enemy conceived of as pure evil—and one could go on) might be considered, well… evil.

Oh great, we've got another S.D. on our hands.

Mike is right. You're thinking way too far into this. The Nazis didn't invent award ceremonies, or invent hanging banners at award ceremonies. As for "Triumph of the Will," Leni Riefenstahl merely found a compelling angle for filming award ceremonies. Are you calling a camera angle fascist?

As for "the heroic use of will to overcome insidious evil," the fascists sure as hell didn't invent that, either. That sounds like, well, any epic involving a hero. You might as well say "The Odyssey" is evil. Odysseus used smarts and will to overcome insidious enemies--Odysseus is a Nazi superman!

I see a lot of big words and fancy concepts in your posts, but you seem to be ignoring some very basic stuff. I suspect you've just been wanting to flaunt the fact that you're "above" watching the "Star Wars" movies.

[Anebo]

It showed the principle characters being decorated at a fascist ralley complete with neo-Speerian red banners all over the place.

Look again. There were no banners.

I’m hardly responsible for the ignorance of the mass viewing audience.

Steven Spielberg, however, is.

One might think that manipulating the unsuspecting audience’s emotions by using Nazi propaganda techniques (especially in an atmosphere already thick with fascist motifs such as the heroic use of will to overcome the otherwise invincible, insidious power of the enemy conceived of as pure evil—and one could go on) might be considered, well… evil.

Oh great, we've got another S.D. on our hands.

Mike is right. You're thinking way too far into this. The Nazis didn't invent award ceremonies, or invent hanging banners at award ceremonies. As for "Triumph of the Will," Leni Riefenstahl merely found a compelling angle for filming award ceremonies. Are you calling a camera angle fascist?

As for "the heroic use of will to overcome insidious evil," the fascists sure as hell didn't invent that, either. That sounds like, well, any epic involving a hero. You might as well say "The Odyssey" is evil. Odysseus used smarts and will to overcome insidious enemies--Odysseus is a Nazi superman!

I see a lot of big words and fancy concepts in your posts, but you seem to be ignoring some very basic stuff. I suspect you've just been wanting to flaunt the fact that you're "above" watching the "Star Wars" movies.

I may be misremebering since I haven't seen it in more than 30 years; perhaps the banners were edited out in the re-release?

What is an S.D.? (Sicherheitdienst?)

You have to look at the whole context of the film. Besides the point I addressed in the earlier comment, you have this whole pseud-mystical 'force thing' (just the thing the anhnenerbe would have been wild for), then the obsession with blood lines (from what I know of the later development of the plot) and breeding to create luke the super jedi (borrowed, from Dune I realize, but still...). Doens't the overarching plot invovle a small cabal of merchants conspiring to take over the empire using the insidious power of the darkside of the force to corrupt the superior arsitocratic and warrior classes ? Didn't that remind you of the Jewish conspiriacy outlined, for instance in Judd Suess? When I was recently reading Ecco's reminiscence of the fascist literature he had to read in scool as a child in the Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana, I was actually reminded of the whole Luke character (such as there is of it) and hsi desperate heroics.

I do consider Star Wars a waste of time (not that wasting time isn't sometimes a necessary release--hence these posts), because it was so awful in its writing and in some many other ways. But I do insist that it is built on a superstrucutre of crypto-fascist symbolism--I understand Lucas acknowleges Campbell as his main source, so there you go. Odysseus, incidentlally, does rely on his cleverness rather than on an overwhelming display of violence, he was mostly helpless without the help of the Gods, and if he ultimately suceeds it is a sucess balanced by failure (the loss of his whole contingent, for instance), these are hardly fascisitic traits.

I'm sorry I used words and concepts you considered big and fancy. In future posts can I use words like concatenation or concepts like intertexuality, or will it give you a headache?

[DOMON KASSHU!]

It showed the principle characters being decorated at a fascist ralley complete with neo-Speerian red banners all over the place.

Look again. There were no banners.

I’m hardly responsible for the ignorance of the mass viewing audience.

Steven Spielberg, however, is.

One might think that manipulating the unsuspecting audience’s emotions by using Nazi propaganda techniques (especially in an atmosphere already thick with fascist motifs such as the heroic use of will to overcome the otherwise invincible, insidious power of the enemy conceived of as pure evil—and one could go on) might be considered, well… evil.

Oh great, we've got another S.D. on our hands.

Mike is right. You're thinking way too far into this. The Nazis didn't invent award ceremonies, or invent hanging banners at award ceremonies. As for "Triumph of the Will," Leni Riefenstahl merely found a compelling angle for filming award ceremonies. Are you calling a camera angle fascist?

As for "the heroic use of will to overcome insidious evil," the fascists sure as hell didn't invent that, either. That sounds like, well, any epic involving a hero. You might as well say "The Odyssey" is evil. Odysseus used smarts and will to overcome insidious enemies--Odysseus is a Nazi superman!

I see a lot of big words and fancy concepts in your posts, but you seem to be ignoring some very basic stuff. I suspect you've just been wanting to flaunt the fact that you're "above" watching the "Star Wars" movies.

I may be misremebering since I haven't seen it in more than 30 years; perhaps the banners were edited out in the re-release?

What is an S.D.? (Sicherheitdienst?)

You have to look at the whole context of the film. Besides the point I addressed in the earlier comment, you have this whole pseud-mystical 'force thing' (just the thing the anhnenerbe would have been wild for), then the obsession with blood lines (from what I know of the later development of the plot) and breeding to create luke the super jedi (borrowed, from Dune I realize, but still...). Doens't the overarching plot invovle a small cabal of merchants conspiring to take over the empire using the insidious power of the darkside of the force to corrupt the superior arsitocratic and warrior classes ? Didn't that remind you of the Jewish conspiriacy outlined, for instance in Judd Suess? When I was recently reading Ecco's reminiscence of the fascist literature he had to read in scool as a child in the Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana, I was actually reminded of the whole Luke character (such as there is of it) and hsi desperate heroics.

I do consider Star Wars a waste of time (not that wasting time isn't sometimes a necessary release--hence these posts), because it was so awful in its writing and in some many other ways. But I do insist that it is built on a superstrucutre of crypto-fascist symbolism--I understand Lucas acknowleges Campbell as his main source, so there you go. Odysseus, incidentlally, does rely on his cleverness rather than on an overwhelming display of violence, he was mostly helpless without the help of the Gods, and if he ultimately suceeds it is a sucess balanced by failure (the loss of his whole contingent, for instance), these are hardly fascisitic traits.

I'm sorry I used words and concepts you considered big and fancy. In future posts can I use words like concatenation or concepts like intertexuality, or will it give you a headache?

Being smart and having an opinion is no reason to be an asshole, unless you're me. Next case, there is no such thing as Luke the Super Jedi. He was Luke, the Last of the Jedi. The overarching plot of the prequel series did not involve merchants trying to take over. It was about Palpatine actually being the controlling force behind both factions at war. That's what made it interesting, because you could see that no matter who won, Palpatine's Empire would still form. The pseudo-mystical Force? Look again. Most of that concept is based on Christianity for the concept and simple fantasy magic for the application. R. Daniel is right, you read way too much into this.
War.

[Mike]

I don't know who Campbell is, but as far as I know (and I know far, far more about SW than any sane person should) Lucas was inspired by old Flash Gordon serials from the 40s, samurai movies, especially The Seven Samurai, and old WWII movies. During production, shots of airplanes fighting over a river/bridge were used as placeholders for the Death Star dogfight.

And I don't know why you mentioned Spielberg. He is friends with The Flanneled One, but he didn't have a whole ton to do with the movie.
It seems like it's really, really a stretch to call the whole movie a Nazi allegory from just one scene...just a couple shots really. In the Nazi movie it was a huge party rally, in SW it was a "yay these guys just prevented our asses from getting blown up, let's give them medals" thing.

[Anebo]

As for Spielberg, see above.

Doesn't decosntruction teach us that it is impossible to read too much into anything?

Campbell is Joseph Campbell, ths popualrizing mythographer.

[DOMON KASSHU!]

I don't know who Campbell is, but as far as I know (and I know far, far more about SW than any sane person should) Lucas was inspired by old Flash Gordon serials from the 40s, samurai movies, especially The Seven Samurai, and old WWII movies. During production, shots of airplanes fighting over a river/bridge were used as placeholders for the Death Star dogfight.

And I don't know why you mentioned Spielberg. He is friends with The Flanneled One, but he didn't have a whole ton to do with the movie.
It seems like it's really, really a stretch to call the whole movie a Nazi allegory from just one scene...just a couple shots really. In the Nazi movie it was a huge party rally, in SW it was a "yay these guys just prevented our asses from getting blown up, let's give them medals" thing.

Well, they did work together on Indiana Jones, which had someone fighting Nazis. Maybe that was just to throw us off... gasp! Star Wars is actually Nazi indoctrination propaganda! Hide the children! For the love of God, don't let them near the Ewoks...

Deconstructionism? Never had a high opinion of it. Like the constant comparison of The Lord of the Rings and World War II. Like the author himself said, there IS no comparison. LotR is just a book series about a fantastic adventure. Nothing more.
War.

[The Final Negotiator]

I may be misremebering since I haven't seen it in more than 30 years; perhaps the banners were edited out in the re-release?

What is an S.D.? (Sicherheitdienst?)

You have to look at the whole context of the film. Besides the point I addressed in the earlier comment, you have this whole pseud-mystical 'force thing' (just the thing the anhnenerbe would have been wild for), then the obsession with blood lines (from what I know of the later development of the plot) and breeding to create luke the super jedi (borrowed, from Dune I realize, but still...). Doens't the overarching plot invovle a small cabal of merchants conspiring to take over the empire using the insidious power of the darkside of the force to corrupt the superior arsitocratic and warrior classes ? Didn't that remind you of the Jewish conspiriacy outlined, for instance in Judd Suess? When I was recently reading Ecco's reminiscence of the fascist literature he had to read in scool as a child in the Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana, I was actually reminded of the whole Luke character (such as there is of it) and hsi desperate heroics.

I do consider Star Wars a waste of time (not that wasting time isn't sometimes a necessary release--hence these posts), because it was so awful in its writing and in some many other ways. But I do insist that it is built on a superstrucutre of crypto-fascist symbolism--I understand Lucas acknowleges Campbell as his main source, so there you go. Odysseus, incidentlally, does rely on his cleverness rather than on an overwhelming display of violence, he was mostly helpless without the help of the Gods, and if he ultimately suceeds it is a sucess balanced by failure (the loss of his whole contingent, for instance), these are hardly fascisitic traits.

I'm sorry I used words and concepts you considered big and fancy. In future posts can I use words like concatenation or concepts like intertexuality, or will it give you a headache?

Actually, the birth of Luke (and Leia) had not been planned, as Padme's pregancy would have called to attention her and Anakin Skywalker's secret marriage. Early Jedi were encouraged to focus on their art, not marriage and progeny... (Oh, my I used a big word...) By the way, the Trade Federation had no interest in the force, and even feared their own Sith ally's use of the dark side of the force. Jedi were heavily chastised for even thinking of using the force to conquer...

The only fascists were The Empire, and this was made VERY obvious (down to the stormtrooper/guard/Darth Vader's helmets). If I wanted, I could compare the pomp and circumstance of the parade/ceremony at the end of Star Wars EP 1 with parts of The Nutcracker...

As far as I'm concerned, the Nazi's copied the traditions of many other conquerers, because, like other conquerers, they thought they had the divine right to conquer the world. Obviously, in their case, they were mistaken. It's like Sadam wearing the red turban, because Nostradamus said a man with such a turban would start World War III. Op. Desert Storm wiped out Sadam's forces in the blink of an eye...

strcat(output, substring); ?   Go right ahead... However, you may not use "intertexuality" as it is the misspelling of "intertextual"...and shame on you for making me have to look that one up.

Vocabulary should create bridges not walls...

[Mike]

OK...you admitted that you only saw the original movie, so don't go and analyze the other ones if you've never seen them.

The plot, if you want to do them in story order not production order, is this:
Palpatine is both a Senator, and a dark side Sith who wants to rule the galaxy. He puts a ridiculously complex plan into motion where he plays both sides of a small war against each other to get himself elected president. Then he does basically the same thing, except on a galactic scale, to get himself more and more powers until he has turned the democratic Republic into the Empire. Although nobody knew he was actually the leader of both sides, fans could tell pretty easily. Oh yeah, he's also the BAD GUY.
Anakin was a really powerful Jedi who Palpatine put his sights on to turn over to the dark side, and he did, lots of bad stuff happened, but the last remaining Jedi figured they could use Anakin's kids to make things right. cue the original trilogy.

I'm sorry I used words and concepts you considered big and fancy. In future posts can I use words like concatenation or concepts like intertexuality, or will it give you a headache?

And please, don't insult our intelligence. You haven't been here that long, and we don't all have phD's in philosophy.

[The Ghost Of Ember]

The philosophy of the Romantics was indeed a form of Neoplatonism. Could you expand, however, on what specifically you see in the show linked to Romanticism?

Most prominently references to William Blake, mostly from Schwarzwald: The painting on the back of the pamphlets he distributes, which is one of Blakes etchings. A few direct quotes from “The Marriage of Heaven and Hell.” As well as quoting from Leviathan, by Thomas Hobbs. As well, the whole Big Venus/Big Lucifer/Angel thing and her being presented as largely sympathetic cannot help but remind me of the heroic presentation of Satan in Paradise lost.

The design of the Paradigm building is completely ripped from one of the paintings that were inspired by the Divine Comedy. I think it may be La commedia illumina Firenze ("The Comedy Illuminating Florence"), but I can’t be certain.
 
That’s all I can remember off the top of my head. There’s probably more.

...fascist motifs such as the heroic use of will to overcome the otherwise invincible, insidious power of the enemy conceived of as pure evil...

This just in: every children’s story ever is really FACIST PROPOGANDA!

Dude. If you don’t like Star Wars just say you don’t like Star Wars. Being a fellow pretentious asshole, I can attest acting in this manner rarely makes you popular to anyone (except maybe other pretentious assholes, and that's assuming you don't get into a big "my penis brain is bigger than yours!" pissing contest).

[Big Money]

I am talking about the end of the first film (1977 was it?) never having seen any of the others. It showed the principle characters being decorated at a fascist ralley complete with neo-Speerian red banners all over the place.

... I'm sorry I stumbled in here.

Excuse me while I back out of this thread, quietly.

[The Final Negotiator]

I am talking about the end of the first film (1977 was it?) never having seen any of the others. It showed the principle characters being decorated at a fascist ralley complete with neo-Speerian red banners all over the place.

... I'm sorry I stumbled in here.

Excuse me while I back out of this thread, quietly.

Sorry, Big Money, now where was I?

Oh, Big O abounds in references to traditional Western theater (including some of the gadgetry), which was derived from Theatre of ancient Greece (including some of the gadgetry):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_theatre

-Paradigm City and the surrounding desert as one huge movie set, large enough to contain it's own weather.
-The "movie set" used to film/record Angel's childhood memories hearkens back to traditional stage shows.
-A megadeus was a "deux ex machina" (or contrived solution) to solve crises (ex. city attacks). Not that there's
 anything wrong with that... However, there was another deux ex machina: Angel. She even gets her own
 powerful megadeus that destroys and recreates, not unlike some accounts of the Hindu diety Shiva. She puts
 everything back to normal. Because it's a contrived solution, it peaks our interest ("Hmm, I never saw that
 coming..."), but it also leaves you with a "Huh?" feeling because it shouldn't normally have gone down the way
 it did.
- I've heard many comparisons to the Truman show, but while I can say Angel was the engineer and/or producer, there were not enough details to label her as the director. Make no mistake, though, the Paradigm City residents were held captive by the surrounding deserts, just like Truman was blocked by roadblocks and a torrential sea on the sea-side of his town. The Union members did live out there, but desired the comfort of the city. The corporeal Schwarzwald died in the desert, though his soul remained.

OK, I'll take a break, so everyone (including me) can untwist their gray matter. (Yes, even us posters get headaches posting this stuff. But hey, if encourages fun conversation, it's worth it...)

The "world" of Big O embodies Shakespeare's famous quote:

Quote from Shakespeare on ?:

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players...

.The Final Negotiator.

[Anebo]

I am talking about the end of the first film (1977 was it?) never having seen any of the others. It showed the principle characters being decorated at a fascist ralley complete with neo-Speerian red banners all over the place.

... I'm sorry I stumbled in here.

Excuse me while I back out of this thread, quietly.

Sorry, Big Money, now where was I?

Oh, Big O abounds in references to traditional Western theater (including some of the gadgetry), which was derived from Theatre of ancient Greece (including some of the gadgetry):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_theatre

-Paradigm City and the surrounding desert as one huge movie set, large enough to contain it's own weather.
-The "movie set" used to film/record Angel's childhood memories hearkens back to traditional stage shows.
-A megadeus was a deux ex machina (contrived solution) to solve crises (city attacks). Not that there's
 anything wrong with that... However, they're was another deux ex machina: Angel. She even gets her own
 powerful megadeus that destroys and recreates, not unlike some accounts of the Hindu diety Shiva. She puts
 everything back to normal. Because it's a contrived solution, it peaks our interest ("Hmm, I never saw that
 coming..."), but it also leaves you with a "Huh?" feeling because it shouldn't normally have gone down the way
 it did.
- I've heard many comparisons to the Truman show, but while I can say Angel was the engineer and/or producer, there were not enough details to label her as the director. Make no mistake, though, the Paradigm City residents were held captive by the surrounding deserts, just like Truman was blocked by roadblocks and a torrential sea on the sea-side of his town. The Union members did live out there, but desired the comfort of the city. The corporeal Schwarzwald died in the desert, though his soul remained.

OK, I'll take a break, so everyone (including me) can untwist our gray matter. (Yes, even us posters get headaches posting this stuff. But hey, if encourages fun conversation, it's worth it...)

The "world" of Big O embodies Shakespeare's famous quote:

Quote from Shakespeare on ?:

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players...

.The Final Negotiator.

Of course Shakespeare gets it from Epictetus (Enchr. 17):

Remember that you are an actor in a play of such a sort as the playwright wishes;
if he wishes it to be short, it is short; if long, it is long. If he wishes that you play a
beggar, [it is] in order that you play gracefully even this role. And this is such [whether
your role is that] of a cripple, of a ruler, or of a layman. For it is your task to play finely
the part given to you, but to pick out that part is another's.

I don't quite see the references to stage machinery as oppsoed to the stage in general. could you elaborate?

By the way, the phrase you want is 'deus ex machina.'

The appearance of Big Venus at the end is certainly a deus ex machina in the most literal sense (and the reference behind it is perhaps Venus as creatrix in Lucretius), but I have toruble with the idea of Megadeus entirely being derived from that term. Could you clarify?

I've often thought the reading one ought to take of Anglels aritifical childhood is that modern people don't so much have a childhood as watch one on tv.

(ps I'm glad to be back to the topic at hand too)

[The Final Negotiator]

Of course Shakespeare gets it from Epictetus (Enchr. 17):

Remember that you are an actor in a play of such a sort as the playwright wishes;
if he wishes it to be short, it is short; if long, it is long. If he wishes that you play a
beggar, [it is] in order that you play gracefully even this role. And this is such [whether
your role is that] of a cripple, of a ruler, or of a layman. For it is your task to play finely
the part given to you, but to pick out that part is another's.

I don't quite see the references to stage machinery as oppsoed to the stage in general. could you elaborate?

By the way, the phrase you want is 'deus ex machina.'

The appearance of Big Venus at the end is certainly a deus ex machina in the most literal sense (and the reference behind it is perhaps Venus as creatrix in Lucretius), but I have toruble with the idea of Megadeus entirely being derived from that term. Could you clarify?

I've often thought the reading one ought to take of Anglels aritifical childhood is that modern people don't so much have a childhood as watch one on tv.

(ps I'm glad to be back to the topic at hand too)

After some thought, the megadeus as deus ex machina wasn't constant throughout all episodes. (BTW, thanks for the correction - sometimes the fingers outrun the mind, y'know?)  I was toying with a theory put forth by someone else, where crises in each episode would eventually be resolved with a robot battle. However, this theory fails when one considers that Roger stopped Instro, Big Fau (in his first appearance), and Big Venus without firing a shot. Really, I think the name Megadeus comes from their resemblance to idols of ancient dieties. This fits, since megadeus can be literally translated as "great god".

However, Big O did play "deus..." a couple times: 1) Act 13, where he bursts through the ground to defeat R.D. seconds before she can assassinate Roger. 2) Act 23, where he punches through the wall of the already-trashed Smith mansion, preventing spider-like robot attackers from harming Norman and Dorothy.

Now that I think of it, Angel AND Dorothy both get to play "deus...". Dorothy's turn was when she linked to Big O, enabling the "Final Stage" weapon, and providing the only apparent opportunity to defeat Alex (that is, before Big Venus' appearance).

Konaka even plays with this idea. Vera activates Behemoth as a surprising final attempt by the Union to attack Paradigm city, but her "deus..." is counteracted by another "deus...", falling debris from the stage rigging, that just happens to be above the spot where Behemoth is unearthed. (Big O, didn't defeat Behemoth, he only "incapacitated" it.)

As for the stage machinery, the stage lighting is the easy one. There's also the hidden tunnels used by Roger, Big O, Schartzwald, and the Archetype; and Big Fau's trap door under the "Washington Arch" of Paradigm City. Finally, we've got the gears/shafts underneath the city, which I think are analogous to the lifts used in modern stages.

I look at Angel's "childhood" as conveying the message "No one truly has a 'fairy tale' childhood."

I wondered why they associated Venus, goddess of love, with rebirth? Your's sounds like a plausible theory.

.The Final Negotiator.

P.S. There might be an off-hand Cowboy Beebop reference: Dorothy finds "Pierrot" the kitten in "Lost Cat". Cowboy Bebop had an episode "Pierrot Le Fou", which just happened to feature a giant robot, too.