City of Amnesia

So for anyone who watched gundam seed you might have heard of a coordinator. A coordinator is a person geneticly enhanced before birth to be able to pilot a gundam at max output.

So heres the thing. In Big O Roger is the only reall pilot of the megadui, so could he be a coordinator? It does seem possible because coordinators only tend to remember their moms.

First of all: gundam SEED was terrible.
Second of all...it is possible that he was genetically messed-around with. He's the only person Big O really reponds to, and he does have visions of those little kids with barcodes.

No no no... Roger is a negotiator.

Now, to be fair, while the universal laws of Gundam have absolutely no relevance with Big O, there is something here to consider. The Megadei seem very specific in who they choose to allow to pilot them. They judge the person piloting (or attempting to do such) and react accordingly.

This procedure does seem to be directly tied in to what memories the pilot has, who's role they are playing. Since we don't really know if the people in Paradigm City are clones or virtual or just people with implanted memories or what, I can't really say how much of this has to do with genetic predisposition. But it is possible. If Roger Smith is not just the memories placed into a child who will grow into the role of Roger Smith, but is manufactured to be the same person genetically, in addition to those memories, then it's possible that he was also designed in such a way to be the Dominus for Big O, and that goes beyond memories as well.

Since Roger's flashbacks of previous incarnations all look alike (in addition to the stage set and/or vision of figurative Roger Smith robot factory line), I'm inclined to think that he was the same person... genetically... each time. Assuming they're physical people within the context of the show. Alex Rosewater seemed to think there are certain characteristics required to be a Dominus, so why can't those characteristics be added or enhanced?

(Then again, it's a good idea to take much of what Alex says with a grain of salt. :-\)

~J

This thread seems to be rather random. Not sure what SEED has to do with Big O as genetic engineering is a pretty common theme in anime.

I agree with Jixie. He isn't enhanced, but merely copied. After all, what would Paradigm City ever do without it's top negotiator? ???

Maybe he has exceptional reflexes, but I think that's just natural ability. Also, as Jixie stated, there is no need to tailor Roger for Big O. Big O just chose the most appropriate dominus and as luck would have it, Roger was a perfect match. So the real genetic work went into making sure that Roger was always 100% Roger, if not at least 99.999%.  8)

.The Final Negotiator.  ???
Then again, how could you tell?

It's odd that jixie mention role playing as a key factor. Most coordinators are clones of humans sence past. And Big O is from the makers of gundam so theres the tie in.

Eh...it's not really by the same people. It's by the same company, but directed and written and designed by completely different people.

I fail to see any connection but the giant robots.
War.

Giant Robots, war, and gratuitous explosions.

I've never seen Seed, I'm just assuming that since it's Gundam, things explode lots.

Just as Big O and Gundam imply giant robots, war should always imply gratuitous, and even spectacular, explosions...

Yeah, that was one department where SEED was not lacking. Lots of crap got blow'd up.

lol. nother tie in is that the main gundam artist helped design big o robots and characters for the anime and manga.

What makes you think that was figurative? As far as the continuity of the show goes, Roger Smith is a robot. Big O was a robot. It doesn't take much to infer that everyone in Paradigm city was a robot, without knowing it. As far as the continuity of the show goes.

But what is more interesting is the symbolic value of that element of the show. Does it perhaps mean that the phyiscal body is something foreign to our true nature as human beings?

Roger can operate Big O because he is not guilty. So far as I know, only one man in history is singled out as being not guilty in contrast with the guilty hordes of mankind. In philsosophical discussion that same man is usually called a mediator, which is a synonym for negotiator. He also died with his arms outstretched to his sides, jsut like Roger (asuming what ever happens at the reset is the end of one existence and the beginning of another). Do you think maybe Roger is supposed to be a symbol for that man, or to play a role analagous to his?

You mean Jesus? It's okay to say Jesus.

So you think so too?

Don't know about anyone else, but I prefer to avoid that thought, as it leads me towards thinking Big O has something in common with Evangelion, king of badly done Christianity references.

Well, you know. Except for the bleeding. And the having grown up from childhood into an adult. And the need for sleep. And the lack of strength, speed and reflex, as well as the heavy weight of an android built over a metal skeleton. And the clear differentiation from the very first episode that was consistent throughout the entire show between human beings and androids (and cyborgs).

There are a lot of things in Big O which are figurative, and not meant to be taken literally. For example: the illustration of humans with implanted memories being genetically enhanced/cloned vegetables. No one actually believes that Roger (or anyone else on 'Big O') was literally a tomato, even thought the illustration is used many times.

So, there is clear evidence that there are humans (Roger, Norman, Dastan, Alex, Gordon, etc., etc.) and there are androids (Dorothy, Instro, R.D., Freddy, the sniper, etc.), and that these are two separate things. Again, this is constant throughout the show. It doesn't take much to infer that a three second clip of a Roger Smith robot building factory was no more literal than the tomato analogy. Unless you subscribe to the theory that Paradigm city is not real within the context of the show itself (ie: a computer program, a TV show, a fantasy dream of the emotionally damaged child Angel Rosewater's, ETC.), which I don't.

---

As for the Roger / Jesus connection. I have mixed feelings on this one. 'Big O' references heavily on a lot of deep-thinking outside material. Christianity is certainly one of them. We see examples such as christmas, the birth of gods son, the churches, several of Schwartzwalds speeches and his fliers.

But is Roger supposed to represent Jesus? I'm not sure. If it weren't for the end scene with Big Venus, I would say no. Yet we have the end, where he mediates between humans (and androids :P) and the controller of their world. He doesn't die to atone for mankinds sins... but... he kind of does? You're right about the outstretched arms, while they could have meant anything, it really does evoke the feel of Christ on a cross. Gah.

...Ok. My answer on this one, is that I don't think Roger is supposed to be Jesus, or a representation of him, so much as comparison was drawn out to make a statement. ... if only the ending wasn't so "ZOMG drug-trip wtf?" and we might actually know what the heck that statement is.

---

Shadowdorothy: Gundam and Big O are both Japanese animes about giant humanoid robots. As a result of their nature, there share a few of the common giant-robot-anime cliches. Aside from these cliches, they really actually have nothing to do with each other. Alright?

~J

I'm sure you've seen the terminator films with bleeding androids. Your explanation could just as well apply to Androids who are programmed to think they are humans, and androids who are programmed to know they are androids.

here are two further points:

1. Paradigm city is obviosuly not real in the context of the show--the stage lights in the cieling etc.

2. Roger always says that 40 years ago Everyone lost their memory, including him. But Roger is not 40 years old. But if he were programmed to know that 40 years ago he had lsot his memory...he would hardly be able to question it.

I certainly agree with you that the show is allegory. But we need to seperate the surface content of the show that supplies themes that can be treated as allegory and the the allegorical interpretation. Human beings are likened to tomatos in the ordinary discourse of speech, so on the manifest conent of the show that is a metaphor. Roger sees the Roger factory revealed to him in something like a flash of divine revelation. I am inclined to take that  as the most real element as far as the manifest content is concerned.

Man, why you got to quote the entire post. Makes it harder to reply to specific lines.  ;D


Except it's never suggested that there are androids which are capable of bleeding, crying, etc. in 'Big O'.

Like I said, from the start there are very specific characteristics we're shown... again, and again, and again... of how robots are different from humans. ALL of the KNOWN robots on the show are stronger, faster, and heavier than humans. They ALL have limited emotional capabilities (or at least, a limited capability to express emotions) and limited independence. They are all aware of their condition as a robot. We're never shown anything that hints there are androids around who deviate from these rules.

Just because the androids in Terminator can bleed, it has no relevance to 'Big O', any more than Gundam does. 'Big O' has it's own set of rules as to what the robots in that show can and can not do. And they don't bleed.

If there were hints throughout the show that everyone in Paradigm City were androids, if it was suggested-- even remotely-- that there were androids who were just like a human in every way, outside of this one brief glimpse from Roger's vision (more on this later!)... then I might be more inclined to consider this idea. There just isn't. There isn't evidence to substantiate this theory.

(Because I'm pretty much obligated to bring this up anyways: the only sort of deviation the show gives us from the robots vs. human rules is Alan, who's a little of both. The fact that whenever he shows up they make a big deal about how he's different and new and unlike anything that came before, only helps prove my point. If the humans were all secretly androids, then the whole cyborg thing is not only moot but also ludicrous. Even dead Schwartzwald's ghost points out that there's men and there's machines, and Alan who falls into the "none of the above" category.)


Sorry-- let me clarify. I mean, whether or not Paradigm has a physical manifestation or not. As much as I hate to use this example: are we talking about the "Matrix" or the "real world"? I don't think it is metaphysical, as in, a computer program or a dream.

And the ceiling lights can mean many things. It's very open, very vague, and really we're free to choose whatever interpretation we fancy. I'm just saying that if Paradigm is metaphysical, then whether Roger is an android or not is irrelevant, because he doesn't really "exist" and being a robot is more a "concept" than an actual state of being.


Ok... a better example then. In the first episode of season two, Roger has a vision of being in a world where the Big O does not exist, and he is not a negotiator but a street bum, and Dorothy is a human being. This happens in the middle of a battle.

By your logic, we should take this at face value and jump to the conclusion that all of this happened just as he saw it. Since there is a scene where Roger and Norman are theater actors performing a play, then 'Big O' really is just a show within a show. Yes! Finally, the answer. It's also a comic-- which... actually... it is, but... Oh yea. And everyone is a robot.

Er. Sorry, I didn't bring that up just to be a bitch about it. What I meant to say, is that in addition to the above rules about "what is a robot" we're also ...consistently... shown that Roger has flashbacks and he has visions and not all of these are meant to be taken at face value. You understand? Yes? Please?

Also: spell checker.

Thanks!
~J

What about Big ear then?

 What you are really saying, is that we can discount all of the evidence for proposition X, becuase there is no other evidence for it other than what has been cited.



I actually took that sequence to represent a vision granted to Roger of a higher reality, or at least one that is in some sense more real than the ordinary world of the show; the world before the last event that wiped everyone's memory perhaps.

no, I never thought Roger was some sort of Jesus figure.
To be honest, the last couple episodes were bizarre and confusing and seemed like they were trying to be really deep but it ended up just being a mess that made no sense at all.

Ah, Big Ear. There is that... part where half of his face is blown off... and he does not bleed... because he's an android and they don't have blood... mhmmm. Thanks!

Honestly I did have a memory lapse in regards to Big Ear's surprise buttsecks reveal, which means I need to watch the series again. However! I don't think it actually makes any difference. Big Ear never does anything that falls outside of the "rules about robots" I ranted earlier. Note how when he lectures Roger about being foolish, he is always emotionally contained. And some of his lines suggest that he knows that he's an android, even before anyone else does.


No, I'm saying that other, stronger, evidence is directly contrary to proposition X. Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor), alright?


QFT!

Also re: Roger / Jesus, there was the Greatest Villain episode which had Beck strap Roger to a literal cross. But on that note... I don't think any part of that episode was meant to be taken seriously.

~J

I should point out that it's not even made clear that the metal 'skellingtons' on the Roger Production Line™ are androids. In the context of the show before we see the vision of the Roger Production Line™ they show a bit of the Roger the Wanderer iteration with the Television and then a Dorothy action figure complete with diagram: right before the Roger Production Line™. It's entirely possible that said Production Line is in fact producing Roger action figures for the Television show. Which is ironic considering that Big O started as a project to sell toys. Or perhaps that was the point.

At least it seems to me the whole 'press a shell onto a seemingly metal form' makes more sense in the context of plastic and toys. With Robots it's just kind of retarded.

Also: If everyone was an android, wouldn't the androids who are 'androids' within the context of the show be able to tell? Dorothy seemed capable of discovering Fitzgerald, with the 'God' that is Angel standing right next to her and being surprised by this fact. Yet Dorothy consistently considers Roger 'human.'

I don't think of Roger being meant as a Jesus figure either. To the contrary; I think there was more of a Jesus metaphore around Alex. If you remember in the episode Daemonseed, he's the one who points out that Heaven's Day is the day God's son was born. Perhaps he is thinking of himself? He does think highly of himself as Gordon's son and a ruler over the city. He claims in Act 26 to be a new god and thinks of himself as a messiah. And Gordon is repeatedly mentioned as being the "king" or "god" of the city. Also, when we see the interior of Big Fou, behind him is a crucifix...
So, I guess that's how I see it.

I hate to make repeated allusions to Christianity in the context of Big O, but when the wasteland was brought into the picture, where the union came from, and how all of them were trying to get into Paradigm, I began thinking that 'Paradigm' was meant as a metaphore for 'Paradise'. (Probably only made me think of this because of the musical 'Children of Eden'. > 3>;; )
Perhaps my interpretations are obscure and too far a stretch, though...

I guess I could go further in depth on all this crap so it might make a little more sense than what I've actually written, but I'd rather not write a research paper on it at the moment.
-laps of potential intelligence ends now-
o u o

Rosewater certainly believes he is the messiah, but that is not the same thing as being the messiah--he is more like the anti-christ.

There is no etymological connection between paradise (Avestan) and Paradigm (Greek).

You'll notice even that souce (which I would ahrdly describe as trustworthy--there is something very peculiar about the accent over the second alpha) recognizes its a 'persian' loanword in Greek. I don't know why it says persian instead of Iranian, but the word is attested in Avestan (otherwise known as Old Iranian) and refers to the royal hunting park. The Greeks were well aware of the original meaning, while the deifintion you site is metaphorical, but is in any case based on English rather than Greek usage. If you have any further doubts, look it up in LSJ.

While I could find parallel's to Jesus:

- Roger seemed to only recall the appearance of one parent: his mother.
- The crucifix-type apparatus employed by Beck to capture Roger.
- Roger saved all of the good residents of his world (I was going to say humankind, but we can't forget the androids as well) by putting his life on the line in the final act.

However, I could also refute them with as much effort:

- Roger fell unconcious in the underground tunnels of Paradigm City, and Dorothy found him, tended to his condition, and waited for him to awake. As Roger awoke something seemed female about the person tending to him, and his mind, still in shock recalled the last nurturing human in his life: his mother.
- That crucifix-type apparatus has made it into other science fiction movies. Mostly movies featuring mad scientists, which Beck was able to emulate in a more stylish, much less geeky way. (Of course being CompSci I use "geek" title of honor... :))
- Roger didn't save Paradigm City by his death. He did so by giving it's "director", Angel, the will to live on, rather than reset herself. She then in turn, left everyones personalities intact, and just reset time.

However, I do find this to be an exciting discussion...

If I recall correctly, wasn't it Dale Carnegie, who stated in his Public Speaking curriculum something about it is a great honor for someone to be addressed by their name? So, yes, it's fine to say Jesus, so long as it's not said in vain...

Yeah, I kinda thought the last part was a bit too obscure to really be taken into consideration. Just threw it out there.
And yes, that is quite true about Alex. He's so full of himself. Cx


Apart from Roger and the crucifix, I hadn't thought of that! O8
I rather enjoy this discussion as well. = u =

um, i was never pulling religion into this, and i only meant i thought roger was physical inhanced before birth like a coordinator. does that help clear things up on my end so have fun with ur theories.

You need spellcheck like Georgia needs water.

It wasn't badly done.... just over done. Big time. There were Christian references that you'd have to pull out theoretical and philosophical books just to get (besides the Bible). The show itself was just a mindf@$% to watch.

Big O's got Christian overtones but they usually pop up when dealing with the Rosewaters or The Event. Memories (the biggest subject of Big O II) don't have much to do with God or Christianity aside from Gordon Rosewater "playing God". The megadeuses themselves aren't even very godly or angelic... quite the opposite, they are manmade, bulky (realistic when compared to the agility and complexity of Gundams or Evas), and very cold.
Saying Roger is Jesus is plausible, but unlikely and frowned upon.  If it were they're intention to make Rog = Jesus, it'd be made blatantly obvious with very Jesus-like things (like miracles and the like). In fact the only times we see crosses (a very Jesus related symbol) heavily associated with characters are during Big Fau's final battle with Big O and Eugine's chimera laboratory.

Besides, Roger is more Paradigm City's guardian angel, than it's messiah. Hell, he destroyed more of Paradigm City than he ended up saving.

Wrong, Sir. Wrong.

Note that in Act26 he sees a vision of himself being massproduced as an android... immediately after which he yells "NO!"


*Edit*
Hell, he destroyed more of Paradigm City than he ended up saving.
Oooo I just thought of something... Roger could very well be a representation of the person we all want to be. Chivalrous, strong, handsom, wealthy, good, and caring.  However, like all of us, he strays from his nature more and more when he's pushed into very harsh situations.
Note that in Act10 with the giant toy robot he has to throw it outside of the dome to destroy it.  As the series progresses he becomes more and more careless with his destruction piloting Big O. First in Act 12 with Big Duo's nukes (http://www.paradigm-city.com/images/ep12/bigduo5.jpg).... again in Act14 with the hip-anchors that strike a dozen points (http://www.paradigm-city.com/images/ep14/Battle3.jpg) of the shoreline... then in Act 21 where he lets Bonaparte run rampant (http://www.paradigm-city.com/images/ep21/Paradigm1.jpg) (granted he was trying to save Dorothy)... then again in Act 24 he ended up blasting O-Thunder through multiple buildings (http://www.paradigm-city.com/images/ep24/BigDuoInferno8.jpg)... and ultimately killing hundreds if not thousands when he obliterated Paradigm Dome (http://www.paradigm-city.com/images/ep26/FinalBattle3a.jpg).

Each time he was trying to do some good... but did the good outweight the damage?

Unless, of course, one already had a PhD in Classics with an emphasis in late Greek philosophy and Patristics (the study of the Church Fathers).

Perhaps the show, as you describe it, might be diverting then, though I've never watched it.


The lost memory motif comes from Plato--the memories of each life are wiped out by the soul's drinking from the River Lethe prior to the next reincarnation.

Roger constantly saves Paradigm City, using the power of God, especially from the machinations of its ruler. Don't forget that in the NT the ruler of the world is the Prince of the Powers of the Air--the Devil. This kind of salvation is, of course, the paraclete's--err...Jesus'--primamry function (there's those damn theology books again).

Recall, too, that after Jesus' return, he intends to compeltely destroy the world (by then a burnt out battlefield anyway, with all the giant scorpions running around and much else: the oceans turned to poison,  the third part of the stars fallen, etc.) before repalcing it with the New Jerusalem.

Some very good points being brought up here.



Yes, and I really agree with Anebo on this... while Alex certainly has more Christian-related imagery associated with him, he is also such a fraud. Now I find Alex to be a pretty fascinating antagonist, but he is so haughty, power-hungry, self centered, and his idea of ushering in a new era involved destroying everything, and on that note is basically the exact opposite of Jesus and all he represents. Not that I think he is supposed to be the anti-christ or anything like that, but he is very human... very flawed... and thinks very highly of himself. He also preaches a lot of nonsense. (Oh yes, I think that his comment about god's son being born on Heaven's Day was in part a reference to himself.)

Another biblical reference is the very symbolic number 40. The flood which lasted 40 days, the Israelites who wandered for 40 years, Jesus fasting in the wilderness for 40 days. I've always felt that this was significant but not sure why.

The most blatant reference is where Schwartzwald quotes directly from writing by William Blake and others. I think, though, that this had more to do with making Crispy sound more prophetic and insane that anything. Ember, care to help out on this one?

~J

PS: Evan, love your avatar!

This is similar to threads on the PC and SBO forums and it is interesting now as it was then.  Big O does have a lot of Christian imagery but it also has a lot of purely Jewish imagery too.  First of all there is the 40 years that elapsed since the Event.  In the Torah (Jewish Bible) the number 40 signifies transition.  The 40 days of rain in the story of Noah symbolized a transition from the old sinful world to the better world established by Noah and his children.  It took the Israelites 40 years of wandering in the desert before they made the transition from slaves in Egypt to a free people living in their own land.   

There are more parallels between Roger and Moses than between Roger and Christ.  Roger like Moses was adopted into a wealthy family and reared as a member of the upper classes.  Moses was an ordinary human summoned by God to be used as His instrument, (i.e. Lead the Israelites out of slavery and bring God's Torah into the world)  Roger was summoned by a god to be its instrument (pilot) The strongest parallel between the two however are in the last lines of Big O.  The fight between Big Fau and Big O ends only after Angel destroys Fau.  She is ready to destroy the rest of Paradigm City until Roger convinces her not to.  In the Torah, Moses returns from receiving the Ten Commands to find the Israelites worshiping the golden calf.  God is so angry that He's ready to destroy the Israelites.  Moses convinces God to give them another chance. 

Then there's Big Ear. Big O is the only anime I've seen that features an Ultra-orthodox Jew as a regular character.   His enigmatic use of language and wry humor reminds me of some of the Hassidic folk tales that I've heard and read. 

PS Evan, I like your avatar too.

No seriously, the show is a certifiable mindf@#&. The director got death threats as a result of the making that series... which he then actually put into one of the spin-off movies.

I don't mean to nitpick, but "Powers of the Air" ... if that litterally means dominating the air, then that would hint at Schwarzwald being the devil (or perhaps Alan Gabriel...with the ironic last name). Though I cannot see Schwarzwald as being the devil, evil yes but not the devil....

This here is a contradiction to your "Rog = Jesus" theory.

From Act11 we hear Rosewater say: "Do you know the meaning behind Heaven's Day? ...It's the day God's son was born."
With Alex Rosewater being the only "son" in this series of any significance, and Gordon Rosewater being the absentminded God (the creator of his "cherished tomatoes")... Alex is more the Jesus figure. However, it's only technically... and more likely "anti-Christ" than Christ.

Now to clarify my sensing a contradiction... Alex Rosewater planned to rebuild Paradigm City (the city that his Father had built) by first getting rid of "all you filthy scum". He does this by purposefully destroying Paradigm City. In acts 25 and 26 he constantly mentions reshaping Paradigm in his image. He commisions Beck to capture Dorothy using SCORPION robots. Big Fau is the megadeus of the sea, which has become the death trap for Roger Smith. Big Fau shoots down the stars (stage lights) from the Megadome (aka stage rigging... I just like calling it The Megadome).

Finally... Gordon Rosewater's farm (Garden) is burned to the ground. The destruction of/exile from Eden.

...I think you can see where I'm headed with this.

Actually, I thought the robot scene was his prophetic vision of the future after his death (remember he was very close to death when he envisioned the robots). He knew from talking to Beck that Alex and Beck were working together (remember, Roger didn't hear Beck's confession to Dorothy and Norman) and he knew that Beck could create Roger androids. Was "tomato" Roger about to be replaced by a "Paradigm Dog", corporation-friendly Roger android? I don't blame him for screaming "No". He almost witnessed the death of a man AND his soul...


Yeah, I was on your "science" discussion before the "religion" tidal wave hit.  :) Your point was made perfectly.

I guess we're all unsure, because Roger doesn't seem to be enhanced. However, does anyone notice that he's rarely ill, and hardly ever injured (except for the bullet from R-D)? In fact, even as a "wanderer", he seems to be in good health... Even in the old picture in "Metropolis", he seems in good health... That good health could have been a result of genetic tinkering. Maybe he's not superhuman, but always "in his prime"...

i've never seen a "hero" ill or mangled for that matter. but then again it would be no fun if the hero was sick now would it?

It seems to me that Anebo is once again thinking too far into what she sees. I agree with Jixie; we're meant to enjoy Roger's visions more as metaphors than as expositions.

I give kudos to Jixie. Making posts like those above would definitely take a lot out of me! Also, props to 6moondance for pointing up the Hebrew correlations. I sense a stronger parallel overall.

It's fun to think of Paradigm Tower as a big golden idol... though it looks like  this Tower of Babel (http://www.springfieldlibrary.org/gutenberg/images/dorebibimg.jpg). I wouldn't be surprised if the artists thought it'd be clever to tie two stories into one by making a GOLDEN Tower of Babel.