City of Amnesia

Due to it's sixty's atmosphere and western orientation, Big O was a risky project from the get-go. It got rejected at least once before entering production, I believe. Even when it did get produced, after the first season it looked like it was done for. (To be fair, putting it on a satellite channel didn't help it's chances.) It did turn out to be a relative success in the west, but the only reason a second season was produced was because Cartoon Network came out of nowhere asking for a second season. While some of the staff came out saying that was what they hoped for in interviews, but I doubt that they really expected it.

So what's the point of this thread other than a history lesson?

Largely I want to ask if you think that Big O would have been less of a risk and more of a success if it had allowed itself to be more generically anime? Would you have preferred a longer, but more generic series, or the current state we have now? Was it worth it to go for the unique nature when it may have meant leaving it on a forever cliffhanger with the first season? Were they protecting artistic integrity, or merely making a bad gamble? Where does 'art' end and business begin? Does Big O even count as 'Art'?

My own opinion is mixed. At some level I do not believe in 'art' as most people present, so in that vein the pragmatic decision to do what produces more money makes more sense. But at the same level I shudder at the idea of average anime tropes being thrown into Big O. I'd like to say this is merely a matter of taste, but I really do have this little alarm going 'artist compromise!' going off inside my head at the idea. Even though I do not believe that 'art' as a higher calling. If that's not proof I'm a walking mass of contradictions I do not know what is. I suppose I could explain it away by saying that works that do not stay true to whatever their creators intended are less likely to be successful than potentially risky idea's, but then I get caught up using vague, artistically inclined words like 'vision' and 'soul' to describe my point.

Let me try to unconfuse you and possibly simplify things.

Big O has robots. Big ones and little ones.

It has an intriguing storyline (in my opinion).

It has little robots integrating with the big robots.

It has big robots destroying other big robots.

It has a restart button.

Enjoy.

Okay, I feel like I accomplished very little now.

Big O is pretty full of them to begin with. Other, more universally generic tropes too. Most ideas are inherently neutral or bad, it's the execution that makes them good or great.

Big O being crazy and western was Big O's appeal for me... apart from the giant robots breaking stuff. Which I admit was a large part of it. If it were like any other mecha, it wouldn't have caught my interest nearly as much; I liked the gundam stuff I saw on Toonami ((LOL, he's a WINGER???)), but Toonami's "ONE PART BATMAN..." plug was what piqued my interest way back when the show first aired. Then, of course, how the show never made sense, never made good on answering its own questions (no doubt a problem that arose from the whole "make toys first, make sense later" pitch that the creaters went through; though they never made good on the toys, either, the bums), and interesting and bizzare setting and characters were what kept me going. The colors weren't bad too, thought that's more for season 1 than two.

Though, on the whole, I prefer the limited-run cartoon to the sprawling, endless-succesion-of-ever-more-powerful-villains type of show... with some exceptions. I mean, everyone loves DBZ, no matter how much they may deny it.


Oh, yeah, I forgot the other best part of this show:

Schwartzwald. I have yet to encounter a better villain in any medium I have encountered, but WW Ganondorf came real close.

It was worth it. If Big O were just a generic anime and were more successful it could have ended up like Inuyasha or several other anime which got more episodes than needed. I would LOVE to have a third season or even a fourth, but some "successful" animes have hit over 1000 episodes! I would have lost interest by Act 2 if Big O were generic.

Personally, I think it could do with one more season that has more of a "behind the stage" thing to answer all of the questions that arose.

First point: LOL. Yeah, the 1 part Batman thing was what always made me laugh about it.  :P

The storyline in general (like the basic, without all the frickin' details that made it confusing) were what piqued me. I also happened to be a third grader when it first aired, making me an incredibly easy-to-entertain person (oh, wait, I still am...). Looking back now, it wasn't bad. But the first season made more sense even when I didn't watch it all in order. The second however...well, I was (and still am) incredibly lost. Thanks to Byranx back at the old forum, I was able to "see" Episode 14 due to his transcript...

Third Point (second point stated above): I loved the character...except for the fact that Roger's eyebrows...and his increasingly huge shoulders. But now that I'm a little older, it doesn't look so odd to me (because I draw...and I do dork things like that too). Colors all dull all around, but seem a bit brighter in the second season. But that's the way Paradigm is supposed to look, isn't it?

I like how it's kind of an old style place too, like the phones and the cars are all...kind of vintage almost.

Later days,
Rev

That vintage just adds to the mystery of the whole "What is going on?" effect!

(psst. 13 posts!  :P Couldn't help but note it)

Big O was a good show. Honestly, though, I preferred Gundam MS 08th Squadron. I just thought it was an honestly better show.

Not to knock Big O, but it was full of many clichés that MS 08th Squad lacked, which I liked. Although admittedly, making fun of Japanese people in an anime was exceedingly entertaining.
War.

OF COURSE IT WAS WORTH IT! Or i wouldn't be here...

It's cool that Big O has such a cult following, but honestly, I am glad that this new incarnation is a little more generic. Maybe with a little wider focus we can draw in an even larger active crowd.
War.

I was unclear on my point there, but I was thinking more along the line of more traditional anime style and falling over and sweatdrops and jazz, rather than specific tropes. I'm exaggerating, of course, but you know what I mean. I know Big O often embraces tropes (look at any of the mad scientist characters), but I don't think that's the whole story. It seems more like the tropes are used as a deliberate tool, rather than things unconsciously falling into play that way. Dorothy, for instance, very much encompasses the 'robot/impassive girl' that is a very common trope in anime, but at the same time I feel she surpasses being merely a trope and sometimes even subverts it.

As far as the point of most idea's being neutral are bad... I'm not sure if I agree. I do agree that execution is a huge factor, but I think bad execution can ruin a good idea as much as good execution can make a bad idea good.


Quoted for emphasis.


That's probably the only Gundam I remember with anything but a degree of nostalgic fondness. Most of the other series now strike me as a little too generic and melodramatic (without the benefit of camp). But 08th MS always struck me as better simply because it was more about the life of a soldier and the nature of the military, oh and the soldier just happens to pilot a giant robot. Of course, my memory has been distorted over time. I need to rewatch it to see if my recollection is correct.

Your recollection is accurate.
War.

Big O was awesome because it had huge robots.
Piloted by guys in suits.
And they destroyed pretty much everything.
Weekly.

I really didn't like season 2 though. It was really weird, and confusing, and made my brain hurt. Also the ending made no sense.

08th MS Team...now THAT is a show. I'd like to return my SEED and have more of that, please.
Me = UC snob.

Yes! I second the return of SEED!!!

No. SEED blew. I meant I would like to return it to sender and replace it with more 08th style stuff.

Yes. SEED was a horrible idea up there with Gundam Wing.
War.

Yet you like my videos. I'm so confused.

I need to get some Big O on my computer so I can try to do a Big O AMV. Thing is, I can never find any on Ares...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/maiangel/2.jpg)

I want this as a bumper sticker.

 ;D

They were well done videos. Just because you used a crap anime doesn't mean the videos weren't good.
War.

I think it would have been better if the second season was more like the first season. But keep Big Duo and Big Fau. But, redo most of the other villinous robots, especialy that rx3 robot made by Beck.

YOSH TO RX3.

Probably the best mecha in Big O, period.
War.

Notwithstanding the fact that it got Big Owned in less than a second.

Still awesome.
(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6471/beckrobot16dc4597sv4.jpg)
So I don't suck bandwidth form Paradigm-City.com
War.

Ok, Ok, I cange my opinion. No, wait. It is my opinion. Heck, beck's first creation totaly lasted longer. And RX3 is a rip-off of Power Rangers (Sentai) and his left hand fingers look like french fries. Maybe Beck got hungry. :D

AFTER THE COMMENT BELOW: Ohhh. I see

Nono, its an homage. Its different. Like arm torpedoes.




... actually that may have just been stolen.

RX3 was awesome. It was like the producers were saying exactly how they feel about Power Rangers shows.

...what were arm torpedoes stolen from? The generic Robot Rocket Hands?

At least one of the shows that start with MAZIN; MAZINKAISER, MAZINGER Z, etc. Or so say Rumors on the Internets.

Frankly I don't like traditional anime, it's often trite, boring with wimpy and/or slutty female characters that make me cringe. However I do like Big O.  True it does have a lot of traditional anime clichés such as giant robot fights, smart a**ed, but noble-hearted heroes and goofy villains.  What sets Big O apart from generic anime is the music, artwork, storyline and heroine.  I love the cine noir atmosphere with its unusual perspectives and chiaroscuro, the music is a cut above every other anime I've seen, except for maybe Cowboy Bebop plus Big O is one of the few animes I've ever seen with strong heroines.   So in answer to the question, Yes Big O is worth it.

Perfect. That was a verry clean statement. And finaly someone mentioned the "slutty" girls in usual anime series. (But, Inuasha has a slutty boy.)

Big-O was well worth it. It did much better over here than in did in Japan though.

Big-O didn't do badly during the second season, it just didn't get enough ratings per dollar as other anime because of the fact Cartoon Network had to pay more for it. If Adult Swim only had to buy the rights to show Big-O instead of the entire production cost then Big-O would have been considered a highly sucessful anime.

[justify]The Big O, to me, represents a purer form of anime than most. It does not exist to create or carry on a profitable franchise. It's here to tell a story. Although all the rough treatment it received stunted its growth somewhat, it nevertheless was able to provide a unique and engaging experience. I still regard it as one of the finest animes I've ever seen, and it will forever have a special place in my heart.

It was worth it for the awesome mechs, Roger Smith, retro style, and Paradigm City.[/justify]

Back in my day, we called that Starship Troopers.

But yes, western themes are do want. Very do want.

Also, I like how Schwarzwald is pretty much the best anti-deus ex machina ever. Random burned reporters who pop in, mess up your shit, and go away only to reappear again and repeat this process is kinda awesome.

Also he's only one of a few anime characters (that I can think of) that had his major battle/fight scene well AFTER he died.

True enough, D. Starship Troopers is amazing, and existed long before Japan had the concept of giant mecha.
War.

Who dosen't love Schwarzwald? Especialy when he pioleted Big Duo. Yea, I am making a book about the Big-O vs. All three versions of Big Duo=Big Duo, Big Duo Inferno, and a new megaduse based on the concept art from that Big-O guide wich shall be dubed Kaizer Duo Trinity (yea, a Big without the word "Big" in it's name).

The book or the movie? Or that Kids TV show they had for awhile? The book is one of my all time favorites. The movie was alright I guess, but was a satire of the militaristic society that the book promoted, and was made by people who didn't really like the book (welcome to Hollywood logic). All I remember about the TV show was that it was done in 3D.

Movie is pretty much nothing like the book because it was only after the script was written that someone said "hey this is kinda like starship troopers lets get the rights and branding and stuff".

TV show actually had powered armor and stuff, I think. I don't remember much of it but it was pretty cool.

If you could change anything in the first season, what would it be? :-/

I personaly let Big O and Big-Duo battle longer. And we found out more about R.D. Other than that, the first season was perfect.

I have the series on DVD. If you like the books, it's amazing. Also has the wicked arachnid designs from the movie. It's cool. Watch it. I got the whole series for 20 bucks.
War.

Ok, let's try to keep on the topic, ok. But this Starship Troopers thing, I have seen it and it dose make for some good Saturday afternoon entertainment. I have seen the movie. ;D

We are on topic. We be talking 'bout mecha.
War.

First you were one of the muskenteers, then you were Piccolo, and now you are Vengeta. And when I ment on topic-I'm talking of strictly Big-O.

What the hell are you talking about? Musketeers? When was I that?
War.

On the old forum, you had for your signature some european-looking guy. Unless that guy stole your famous titlecard: War.

THAT was Inigo Montoya. You killed his father. Prepare to die.

Oh yea, one big fau vs. big duo, big duo inferno, and based on big duo concept art, Kaizer Duo Trinity. Your dead. I got more firepower than what Big O had. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

I have Big Zenigata. You lose.
(http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/5690/bzs2zx9.png)

Yosh, thank you, Finale. I have never used a musketeer. And here I shall be mostly sticking to Dragon Ball Z. Like I said before, expect Mr. Satan to show up at some point!
War.

Vegeta, help. Get RX3 out and help by Duo Trio. This guy has done nothing but manipulate a photo of Big-O into something even more fictionous than my Kaizer Duo Trinity.

Nah. RX3 loves having more robots to crush around. After all, what they don't tell you is behind the scenes the RX3 actually is more powerful than Big Fau.

Edit: Please avoid Direct Linking from Paradigm City in the future. They don't allow it. No image shows up. Try uploading the image to an image host and linking from there.
War.

 Big Zenigata is a fake megadeuse. My three big duo variations are not only based on real designes, but also keep to their regular abilities. No fan made robots in this match. But to make it fair, I don't loose, but it is a tie. But all in mathematical experamental probrability, I would have won. And speaking of original abilities, my Kaizer Duo trinity has a giant ship that connects to it by the "holes" in it's breastplate.

Wait, why are your fan-creations any more legit than his?

I mean, come on now.

Indeed... although it should be noted Big Zenigata defeated Big Duo at least twice (and once in Inferno form I think). Jim knows what I'm talkin about. ;)

But Big Lupin lost to a giant firebreathing lizard thing.
War.

Ok, you guys have lost me. What I am going to do is take off a day from the forum and see if you guys are refuring to the old forum. And besides, let it be a tie. And I didn't mean that my fan creation was more legitament. But sorry if I offended anyone again.

None offense taken Duo Dude ;) Just having a little fun :)
There was a little institution called "The Megadeus Fighting League", where folks created and fought giant robots (and eachother ::) ).

http://www.paradigm-city.com/forums/thread.php?postid=201705#post201705

That was one of the Big Duo/Big Zenigata battles.

Anyway, less off topic, more Big O 8)

Thanks for saving me time. But back to topic....


 The animation is not verry detailed-unless if it was in black and white? This is a nod to the older animes Astro Boy, Gigantor, ect. Yea, who liked Gigantor (Tesujin 28 )? :-/

Gigantor wasn't that great. It had its moments, but for the most part, whether Japanese or English, it kind of sucked.
War.

Never seen Gigantor, I just remember in Speed when Keanu Reeves called that one big guy Gigantor, and some people thought it was a subtle plug for the show.

Subtle plug? People are really stretching with that one, damn it.

But no, Gigantor is a waste of time, really.
War.

Gigantor.

My friends won't stop singing that dumb song.

Oh, my god, I hate that theme song. I have this fervent desire to kill whomever wrote that horrendous abomination.
War.

Big O was well worth it. I still watch it on a regular basis. The western nature of the show was vastly more appealing than your run of the mill, Dopey collage student ends up with 5 girls, or Generic shonen anime that's 400+ episodes long.

You exaggerate. Try 250 episodes, and it doesn't necessarily have to be harem either. Consider a show like, hmm, Inuyasha. Painfully long and pointless. Big O is well worth a watch. Especially if you're a fan of Steven Jay Blum's voice acting. Man, his voice acting is amazing.

of course.  ;)


True enough. Yes, I felt Inuyasha dragged on for much, much to long and could have been done in far less episodes.

Steven Blum was one of the reasons that made Big O so much fun, can't really think of anyone else doing his voice.

The biggest problem for me is he's in EVERYTHING. Holy crap, the man sells himself out. They had him be the voice of Wolverine. Okay, Steven Blum is good and all, but come on, folks. He's not a Wolverine by any stretch of the imagination.
War.

In a video game I hope. I don't remember him voicing wolverine in the cartoon. I could be wrong, there was that pathetic add on to the x-men canon called x-men evolution or what not. But I agree, he really is showing up everywhere, even final fantasy. But that just goes to show that there is a need for new voice actors out there on par with Steve's caliber of voice acting.

I'm guessing this was in one of those X-Men games or one of the Marvel related games.

While it's true he is in a ton of stuff, it's common practice for the more popular voice actors to get more roles, on both sides of the pacific. Often leaving the lesser know, but just as talented actors to get smaller roles.

Has anyone ever played Star Wars: Empire at War?
He did at least half the voices in that game.

I imagine that if Steven Blum were to die unexpectedly in a car crash or something, the anime VA industry and the VG voice industry here in the states would collapse. Never mind we have other voice actors like, oh, Brian Drummond, Chris Sabat, Patrick Stewart's done voice work.

Jesus Christ, get some variety!
War.

Standard E-Blah error. Finale's working on it.
War.

Didn't steven blum do a voice in cowboy beebop?

Yes. He was the main character, Spike.
War.

Bring down some companiese eh...

I got an itchy trigger finger!!!! :o !  :o ! :o :o :o :o :o :o