Is Roger a Coordinator?

[The Big Finale]

Don't know about anyone else, but I prefer to avoid that thought, as it leads me towards thinking Big O has something in common with Evangelion, king of badly done Christianity references.

[Jixie]

What makes you think that was figurative? As far as the continuity of the show goes, Roger Smith is a robot.

Well, you know. Except for the bleeding. And the having grown up from childhood into an adult. And the need for sleep. And the lack of strength, speed and reflex, as well as the heavy weight of an android built over a metal skeleton. And the clear differentiation from the very first episode that was consistent throughout the entire show between human beings and androids (and cyborgs).

There are a lot of things in Big O which are figurative, and not meant to be taken literally. For example: the illustration of humans with implanted memories being genetically enhanced/cloned vegetables. No one actually believes that Roger (or anyone else on 'Big O') was literally a tomato, even thought the illustration is used many times.

So, there is clear evidence that there are humans (Roger, Norman, Dastan, Alex, Gordon, etc., etc.) and there are androids (Dorothy, Instro, R.D., Freddy, the sniper, etc.), and that these are two separate things. Again, this is constant throughout the show. It doesn't take much to infer that a three second clip of a Roger Smith robot building factory was no more literal than the tomato analogy. Unless you subscribe to the theory that Paradigm city is not real within the context of the show itself (ie: a computer program, a TV show, a fantasy dream of the emotionally damaged child Angel Rosewater's, ETC.), which I don't.


As for the Roger / Jesus connection. I have mixed feelings on this one. 'Big O' references heavily on a lot of deep-thinking outside material. Christianity is certainly one of them. We see examples such as christmas, the birth of gods son, the churches, several of Schwartzwalds speeches and his fliers.

But is Roger supposed to represent Jesus? I'm not sure. If it weren't for the end scene with Big Venus, I would say no. Yet we have the end, where he mediates between humans (and androids ) and the controller of their world. He doesn't die to atone for mankinds sins... but... he kind of does? You're right about the outstretched arms, while they could have meant anything, it really does evoke the feel of Christ on a cross. Gah.

...Ok. My answer on this one, is that I don't think Roger is supposed to be Jesus, or a representation of him, so much as comparison was drawn out to make a statement. ... if only the ending wasn't so "ZOMG drug-trip wtf?" and we might actually know what the heck that statement is.


Shadowdorothy: Gundam and Big O are both Japanese animes about giant humanoid robots. As a result of their nature, there share a few of the common giant-robot-anime cliches. Aside from these cliches, they really actually have nothing to do with each other. Alright?

~J

[Anebo]

What makes you think that was figurative? As far as the continuity of the show goes, Roger Smith is a robot.

Well, you know. Except for the bleeding. And the having grown up from childhood into an adult. And the need for sleep. And the lack of strength, speed and reflex, as well as the heavy weight of an android built over a metal skeleton. And the clear differentiation from the very first episode that was consistent throughout the entire show between human beings and androids (and cyborgs).

There are a lot of things in Big O which are figurative, and not meant to be taken literally. For example: the illustration of humans with implanted memories being genetically enhanced/cloned vegetables. No one actually believes that Roger (or anyone else on 'Big O') was literally a tomato, even thought the illustration is used many times.

So, there is clear evidence that there are humans (Roger, Norman, Dastan, Alex, Gordon, etc., etc.) and there are androids (Dorothy, Instro, R.D., Freddy, the sniper, etc.), and that these are two separate things. Again, this is constant throughout the show. It doesn't take much to infer that a three second clip of a Roger Smith robot building factory was no more literal than the tomato analogy. Unless you subscribe to the theory that Paradigm city is not real within the context of the show itself (ie: a computer program, a TV show, a fantasy dream of the emotionally damaged child Angel Rosewater's, ETC.), which I don't.


As for the Roger / Jesus connection. I have mixed feelings on this one. 'Big O' references heavily on a lot of deep-thinking outside material. Christianity is certainly one of them. We see examples such as christmas, the birth of gods son, the churches, several of Schwartzwalds speeches and his fliers.

But is Roger supposed to represent Jesus? I'm not sure. If it weren't for the end scene with Big Venus, I would say no. Yet we have the end, where he mediates between humans (and androids ) and the controller of their world. He doesn't die to atone for mankinds sins... but... he kind of does? You're right about the outstretched arms, while they could have meant anything, it really does evoke the feel of Christ on a cross. Gah.

...Ok. My answer on this one, is that I don't think Roger is supposed to be Jesus, or a representation of him, so much as comparison was drawn out to make a statement. ... if only the ending wasn't so "ZOMG drug-trip wtf?" and we might actually know what the heck that statement is.


Shadowdorothy: Gundam and Big O are both Japanese animes about giant humanoid robots. As a result of their nature, there share a few of the common giant-robot-anime cliches. Aside from these cliches, they really actually have nothing to do with each other. Alright?

~J

I'm sure you've seen the terminator films with bleeding androids. Your explanation could just as well apply to Androids who are programmed to think they are humans, and androids who are programmed to know they are androids.

here are two further points:

1. Paradigm city is obviosuly not real in the context of the show--the stage lights in the cieling etc.

2. Roger always says that 40 years ago Everyone lost their memory, including him. But Roger is not 40 years old. But if he were programmed to know that 40 years ago he had lsot his memory...he would hardly be able to question it.

I certainly agree with you that the show is allegory. But we need to seperate the surface content of the show that supplies themes that can be treated as allegory and the the allegorical interpretation. Human beings are likened to tomatos in the ordinary discourse of speech, so on the manifest conent of the show that is a metaphor. Roger sees the Roger factory revealed to him in something like a flash of divine revelation. I am inclined to take that  as the most real element as far as the manifest content is concerned.

[Jixie]

Man, why you got to quote the entire post. Makes it harder to reply to specific lines. 

I'm sure you've seen the terminator films with bleeding androids. Your explanation could just as well apply to Androids who are programmed to think they are humans, and androids who are programmed to know they are androids.

Except it's never suggested that there are androids which are capable of bleeding, crying, etc. in 'Big O'.

Like I said, from the start there are very specific characteristics we're shown... again, and again, and again... of how robots are different from humans. ALL of the KNOWN robots on the show are stronger, faster, and heavier than humans. They ALL have limited emotional capabilities (or at least, a limited capability to express emotions) and limited independence. They are all aware of their condition as a robot. We're never shown anything that hints there are androids around who deviate from these rules.

Just because the androids in Terminator can bleed, it has no relevance to 'Big O', any more than Gundam does. 'Big O' has it's own set of rules as to what the robots in that show can and can not do. And they don't bleed.

If there were hints throughout the show that everyone in Paradigm City were androids, if it was suggested-- even remotely-- that there were androids who were just like a human in every way, outside of this one brief glimpse from Roger's vision (more on this later!)... then I might be more inclined to consider this idea. There just isn't. There isn't evidence to substantiate this theory.

(Because I'm pretty much obligated to bring this up anyways: the only sort of deviation the show gives us from the robots vs. human rules is Alan, who's a little of both. The fact that whenever he shows up they make a big deal about how he's different and new and unlike anything that came before, only helps prove my point. If the humans were all secretly androids, then the whole cyborg thing is not only moot but also ludicrous. Even dead Schwartzwald's ghost points out that there's men and there's machines, and Alan who falls into the "none of the above" category.)

1. Paradigm city is obviosuly not real in the context of the show--the stage lights in the cieling etc.

Sorry-- let me clarify. I mean, whether or not Paradigm has a physical manifestation or not. As much as I hate to use this example: are we talking about the "Matrix" or the "real world"? I don't think it is metaphysical, as in, a computer program or a dream.

And the ceiling lights can mean many things. It's very open, very vague, and really we're free to choose whatever interpretation we fancy. I'm just saying that if Paradigm is metaphysical, then whether Roger is an android or not is irrelevant, because he doesn't really "exist" and being a robot is more a "concept" than an actual state of being.

I certainly agree with you that the show is allegory. But we need to seperate the surface content of the show that supplies themes that can be treated as allegory and the the allegorical interpretation. Human beings are likened to tomatos in the ordinary discourse of speech, so on the manifest conent of the show that is a metaphor. Roger sees the Roger factory revealed to him in something like a flash of divine revelation. I am inclined to take that  as the most real element as far as the manifest content is concerned.

Ok... a better example then. In the first episode of season two, Roger has a vision of being in a world where the Big O does not exist, and he is not a negotiator but a street bum, and Dorothy is a human being. This happens in the middle of a battle.

By your logic, we should take this at face value and jump to the conclusion that all of this happened just as he saw it. Since there is a scene where Roger and Norman are theater actors performing a play, then 'Big O' really is just a show within a show. Yes! Finally, the answer. It's also a comic-- which... actually... it is, but... Oh yea. And everyone is a robot.

Er. Sorry, I didn't bring that up just to be a bitch about it. What I meant to say, is that in addition to the above rules about "what is a robot" we're also ...consistently... shown that Roger has flashbacks and he has visions and not all of these are meant to be taken at face value. You understand? Yes? Please?

Also: spell checker.

Thanks!
~J

[Anebo]

Like I said, from the start there are very specific characteristics we're shown... again, and again, and again... of how robots are different from humans. ALL of the KNOWN robots on the show are stronger, faster, and heavier than humans. They ALL have limited emotional capabilities (or at least, a limited capability to express emotions) and limited independence. They are all aware of their condition as a robot. We're never shown anything that hints there are androids around who deviate from these rules.

What about Big ear then?

 What you are really saying, is that we can discount all of the evidence for proposition X, becuase there is no other evidence for it other than what has been cited.

Ok... a better example then. In the first episode of season two, Roger has a vision of being in a world where the Big O does not exist, and he is not a negotiator but a street bum, and Dorothy is a human being. This happens in the middle of a battle.

By your logic, we should take this at face value and jump to the conclusion that all of this happened just as he saw it. Since there is a scene where Roger and Norman are theater actors performing a play, then 'Big O' really is just a show within a show. Yes! Finally, the answer. It's also a comic--

I actually took that sequence to represent a vision granted to Roger of a higher reality, or at least one that is in some sense more real than the ordinary world of the show; the world before the last event that wiped everyone's memory perhaps.

[Mike]

no, I never thought Roger was some sort of Jesus figure.
To be honest, the last couple episodes were bizarre and confusing and seemed like they were trying to be really deep but it ended up just being a mess that made no sense at all.

[Jixie]

What about Big ear then?

Ah, Big Ear. There is that... part where half of his face is blown off... and he does not bleed... because he's an android and they don't have blood... mhmmm. Thanks!

Honestly I did have a memory lapse in regards to Big Ear's surprise buttsecks reveal, which means I need to watch the series again. However! I don't think it actually makes any difference. Big Ear never does anything that falls outside of the "rules about robots" I ranted earlier. Note how when he lectures Roger about being foolish, he is always emotionally contained. And some of his lines suggest that he knows that he's an android, even before anyone else does.

What you are really saying, is that we can discount all of the evidence for proposition X, becuase [SIC] there is no other evidence for it other than what has been cited.

No, I'm saying that other, stronger, evidence is directly contrary to proposition X. Occam's Razor, alright?

To be honest, the last couple episodes were bizarre and confusing and seemed like they were trying to be really deep but it ended up just being a mess that made no sense at all.

QFT!

Also re: Roger / Jesus, there was the Greatest Villain episode which had Beck strap Roger to a literal cross. But on that note... I don't think any part of that episode was meant to be taken seriously.

~J

[The Ghost Of Ember]

I should point out that it's not even made clear that the metal 'skellingtons' on the Roger Production Line™ are androids. In the context of the show before we see the vision of the Roger Production Line™ they show a bit of the Roger the Wanderer iteration with the Television and then a Dorothy action figure complete with diagram: right before the Roger Production Line™. It's entirely possible that said Production Line is in fact producing Roger action figures for the Television show. Which is ironic considering that Big O started as a project to sell toys. Or perhaps that was the point.

At least it seems to me the whole 'press a shell onto a seemingly metal form' makes more sense in the context of plastic and toys. With Robots it's just kind of retarded.

Also: If everyone was an android, wouldn't the androids who are 'androids' within the context of the show be able to tell? Dorothy seemed capable of discovering Fitzgerald, with the 'God' that is Angel standing right next to her and being surprised by this fact. Yet Dorothy consistently considers Roger 'human.'

[R. Dead Chan]

I don't think of Roger being meant as a Jesus figure either. To the contrary; I think there was more of a Jesus metaphore around Alex. If you remember in the episode Daemonseed, he's the one who points out that Heaven's Day is the day God's son was born. Perhaps he is thinking of himself? He does think highly of himself as Gordon's son and a ruler over the city. He claims in Act 26 to be a new god and thinks of himself as a messiah. And Gordon is repeatedly mentioned as being the "king" or "god" of the city. Also, when we see the interior of Big Fou, behind him is a crucifix...
So, I guess that's how I see it.

I hate to make repeated allusions to Christianity in the context of Big O, but when the wasteland was brought into the picture, where the union came from, and how all of them were trying to get into Paradigm, I began thinking that 'Paradigm' was meant as a metaphore for 'Paradise'. (Probably only made me think of this because of the musical 'Children of Eden'. > 3>;; )
Perhaps my interpretations are obscure and too far a stretch, though...

I guess I could go further in depth on all this crap so it might make a little more sense than what I've actually written, but I'd rather not write a research paper on it at the moment.
-laps of potential intelligence ends now-
o u o

[Anebo]

Rosewater certainly believes he is the messiah, but that is not the same thing as being the messiah--he is more like the anti-christ.

There is no etymological connection between paradise (Avestan) and Paradigm (Greek).

[Jim Starluck]

There is no etymological connection between paradise (Avestan) and Paradigm (Greek).

Noun

paradise (plural paradises)

   1. A very pleasant place.


Etymology

From Ancient Greek παράδεισος (paradeisos “Persian garden”) < Persian.

[Anebo]

There is no etymological connection between paradise (Avestan) and Paradigm (Greek).

Noun

paradise (plural paradises)

   1. A very pleasant place.


Etymology

From Ancient Greek παράδεισος (paradeisos “Persian garden”) < Persian.

You'll notice even that souce (which I would ahrdly describe as trustworthy--there is something very peculiar about the accent over the second alpha) recognizes its a 'persian' loanword in Greek. I don't know why it says persian instead of Iranian, but the word is attested in Avestan (otherwise known as Old Iranian) and refers to the royal hunting park. The Greeks were well aware of the original meaning, while the deifintion you site is metaphorical, but is in any case based on English rather than Greek usage. If you have any further doubts, look it up in LSJ.

[The Final Negotiator]

While I could find parallel's to Jesus:

- Roger seemed to only recall the appearance of one parent: his mother.
- The crucifix-type apparatus employed by Beck to capture Roger.
- Roger saved all of the good residents of his world (I was going to say humankind, but we can't forget the androids as well) by putting his life on the line in the final act.

However, I could also refute them with as much effort:

- Roger fell unconcious in the underground tunnels of Paradigm City, and Dorothy found him, tended to his condition, and waited for him to awake. As Roger awoke something seemed female about the person tending to him, and his mind, still in shock recalled the last nurturing human in his life: his mother.
- That crucifix-type apparatus has made it into other science fiction movies. Mostly movies featuring mad scientists, which Beck was able to emulate in a more stylish, much less geeky way. (Of course being CompSci I use "geek" title of honor... )
- Roger didn't save Paradigm City by his death. He did so by giving it's "director", Angel, the will to live on, rather than reset herself. She then in turn, left everyones personalities intact, and just reset time.

However, I do find this to be an exciting discussion...

If I recall correctly, wasn't it Dale Carnegie, who stated in his Public Speaking curriculum something about it is a great honor for someone to be addressed by their name? So, yes, it's fine to say Jesus, so long as it's not said in vain...

[R. Dead Chan]

Rosewater certainly believes he is the messiah, but that is not the same thing as being the messiah--he is more like the anti-christ.

There is no etymological connection between paradise (Avestan) and Paradigm (Greek).

Yeah, I kinda thought the last part was a bit too obscure to really be taken into consideration. Just threw it out there.
And yes, that is quite true about Alex. He's so full of himself. Cx

Roger seemed to only recall the appearance of one parent: his mother.
- The crucifix-type apparatus employed by Beck to capture Roger.
- Roger saved all of the good residents of his world (I was going to say humankind, but we can't forget the androids as well) by putting his life on the line in the final act.

Apart from Roger and the crucifix, I hadn't thought of that! O8
I rather enjoy this discussion as well. = u =

[shadowdorothy]

um, i was never pulling religion into this, and i only meant i thought roger was physical inhanced before birth like a coordinator. does that help clear things up on my end so have fun with ur theories.